Tahl Leibovitz comments:

Nice Video.  Seems like some of the points are better than the world class points.  marco's opponent (from what is aw briefly, I can't watch the whole match)  returns the ball on his forehand by moving the racketsideways.  If I was marco I would give slow spinny loops to the forehand and also I would loop with no spin.

http://forums.about.com/ab-tabletennis/messages?msg=17191.2

Tahl  replies to stevebtx :

I only watched it for a minute. The guys forehand block technique is very poor and can easily be expolited.  Spin heavy and I'm sure the ball would go out.  Throw in some no spins also.  I would live on his forehand.

That's actually a good strategy against him.  He likes pace.  Louis is a very weird person to play.  His backhand is very unpredictable.  He moves very well.  If we were in a gym, I would not be able to do cheap side-spin shots into the wall to get a point.  He also has good cardio.  At the end of a match he is still fresh.  I think he is about 2000 level, so I'm actually happy about going 6 deuces in the 7th with him. 

Marco

http://forums.about.com/ab-tabletennis/messages?msg=17191.3

You know, this match should have been mine; but I was too out of breath.  In any case, it was just a fun match played in a tight location at 10:00pm.  In an open gym, Louis is much harder to deal with.  I remember one year he was up in games to Ramin Samari, who is 2300.  Louis is a good player, and his tricky style means that brand new people will have trouble with him, even if they are rated 100-200 points above him. Of course, I know his game very well by now, and I am used to the weird balls that he produces. 

Marco

http://forums.about.com/ab-tabletennis/messages?msg=17191.5

Marco replies to PRIMORACFAN 

the scary thing is that I was probably trying to do short underspin serves but it never worked.  Just too damn tired and out of breath at that stage to have loose enough wrists.  I think when I'm sweating that much and also breathing hard, my hands actually shake like someone with parkinsons. 

M

Marco replies to PRIMORACFAN again:

"I also think you played a bit too conservative with your backhand, slow looping high balls."

Part of this is because I don't have total confidence in my backhand yet, I'm using new rubber (2 weeks with Bryce FX).  The other more significant factor is that Louis has so much variation that I have to be careful or I'll miss a lot and the game will be over quickly.

M

Marco replies to stevebtx 

Louis' backhand control game is definitely his strength.  He step around the middle forehand to take a backhand 90% of the time.  He can bring the ball back with varying degrees of top spin, flat, under, or sidespin.  I usually just don't go there.  I don't think he is unbeatable, once you know his game there is a lot you can do to beat him as long as you are at least 1850.  However, his results speak for themselves.  He nearly won the Under 2000 in Vegas one year.  People just aren't used to the way he plays. 

M

Marco's reply to Mark Gorse (CLegout)

Thanks for the analysis.  I definitely need to serve shorter and get in shape more.  I wasn't serving long on purpose. 

As for the backhand "punch" I don't really like that shot, it's too low percentage and in the end I think a loop is a better shot than a hit, especially with this 40mm ball.  However, I agree that I need to get more agressive with it, more angles or up the line, and mix in some drives with those spins.  I can do it very well when I'm comfortable, I can really smoke a short ball to my backhand up the line, but Louis knows that and he doesn't give it to me.  So he gives me high weird balls to my backhand.  As I'm sure you know, it's harder to smoke a high backhand than a low one.  What I really wanted to do was step around, but there's the conditioning again. 

I did push a lot of his serves back, if I can open up with heavy spin he can't return it, you can see two of those points from the tape where I loop and he blocks off.  I was trying to serve short so he would push so that I could load it up but he knows better than to push to me, which is why he's always flipping to good locations to keep me off balance. 

I think I can easily be 2000 with the knowledge that I have if I can just get in shape.  Right now as I type this, it's after 10:00pm and I'm fighting off a serious urge to go and nuke 6 whitecastle cheesburgers...

Marco

Marco replies to heavyspin

Holy Koji, you see all that?  You are right, my movement from left to right is horrible right now.  I think it is because I'm currently having some pain in my left ankle and I can't push off very hard in that direction.  To make matters worse, I'm having pain in my right knee. 

I do a drill with Leo Lucas where he moves me wide left and wide right and I keep looping the ball to his backhand.  This drill often gets very ugly, I can't do more than 3-5 in a row.  (Leo blocks crazy hard btw). 

But, when I switch up and do the same drill to his forehand, suddenly I'm hitting much harder with my forehand, and I can do this at least 10 times at high speed without missing. 

I figure I just have to do more Yoga, lose more weight, and keep doing the drill. 

Things get really intersting when I tell Leo to block me anywhere and I don't know where he's going. 

We do another variation where Leo serves deep underspin and then I loop anywhere and he blocks anywhere.  With any other training partner this drill will be boring for me because I'll end most of the points quickly.  But with Leo, I can barely win a single point!  He blocks everything I do, and jams me or counter-blocks out wide and fast for a clean winner.   

Marco

Marco responds to Khaleel (Bckhndmstr):

It's kind of funny and kind of interesting that both you and Tahl would have no problem whatsoever with Louis; because he has been one of the top 3 players in AZ for quite some time now.  In fact, he recently won the Open.  But you are both right, he has some glaring problems that can be exploited with good tactics.  I still think that if you play him, he might surprise you and force you to play your "A" game, especially if you are in an open gym where he has room to float around and massage the ball.  He has very good movement and can chase down many kills.  So basically, playing him at Rob's house is taking away one of his biggest strengths. 

Yes I saw Harold and Kumar and it was hilarious.  My favorite scene is when Kumar is sitting at the kitchen table wearing a wife beater and yells at his wife (the giant dimebag) and then "she" starts crying and then he says "it's all right..." 

Harold and Kumar remind me of Ashu and Sungill. 

Marco

Losing at 14 with 6 deuces, um, 5, isn't it?  10-10, 11-11, 12-12, 13-13, 14-14, and then 14-15 and 14-16.

Yeah, when I watched it, I thought that you have good technique, but sometimes your loss of enrgy makes your shots lose form. You should definitely do some more cardio and get that breathing in check. The guys backhand is good, very unpredictable. However he likes to make the backhand more from the middle of the table. You could put him deep in the backhand and forehand corners. Speaking of white castle, have you seen harold and kumar go to white castle? It's one of my favorite movies ever.

-Khaleel

Just my observation and opinion. You move well to your left to make a big forehand. You don't move efficiently to your right, however. When you get to the ball, you don't look comfortable so the forehand is much weaker. I think a 1/2 table 1-1 drill, all forehands, would help. (That's what I did 10 years ago when I was in shape enough to actually train.)

I'll give feedback on the video:

Firstly, who is that chubby guy in the video? He played pretty well for his size, especially his footwork. Also, I see a thin player with weird serves and some unorthodoxed styles (forehand and backhand) which is unlike no other world class players we see on TV in world championships.  If it were to be filmed for the audience to see, the rally could have been longer, not just win points for points quickly by hit-miss-unforced errors situation--that be boring for sure. BTW, I don't know their USATT rating so my observation/feedback could be incorrect.

You should serve short more often. Most were between half long and long.

I also think you played a bit too conservative with your backhand, slow looping high balls.

I'd like a bit more of your opinion.  It seemed that Louis did a lot of that side spinning on the forehand side when he stroked, and his forehand blocking form was a bit unique.  Maybe it was the camera angle but his backhand loop/counter stroke seemed a bit unique as well to me.

Hey Marco,

First off, let me say I was really impressed with your two winged game. Your backhand kind of reminds me of Jens Lundqvist. Your positioning is solid. I looks like you play around with your grip quite a bit. But you use more topspin on your backhand.

It seems like you guys know each other quite well, that is probably why the rallies were decent. But you really need to get yourself into shape :). I can hear you are out of breath. I know super skinny people who can't run more than 3 minutes. Cardio conditioning is a must.

 I can clearly tell you have had the benefit of quite a bit of coaching based on your movements. You get back into the ready position after each shot which is solid. I think you were actually the better player from the clip. But you did have problems with his weirdness from time to time. You kept your cool through the match, very important. Extremely important. He was lucky with a few nets.

You glue up a lot from the sound on this tape.

A few things:
1. I think your serve needs to be shorter. You might want to develop a high toss and low toss serve. I find that many players suck against low toss but are good against high toss, or vice versa.
2. It seems like you are not concentrating on backspin very much. I don't think you pushed more than 2-3 in the entire set. It seemed like you were trying to goad him into rallies with your serve and your returns.
3. You weren't mixing up placement on your service. This guy, from the tape looks like he would have problems with a serve that curved really wide to his backhand.
4. You didn't really use many spin shots. This is important. Some players have a lot of problems with spin, some have problems with speed. You were the aggressor in this match. It shouldn't take you 5 or 6 topspins to win most of your points, even though I credit your consistency for being able to do that.
5. Your few pushes were mostly to the center of the table. Only once you pushed wider to his forehand, and his topspin clipped the net. Try mixing up placement on serve return.
6. You did not execute as many down the line shots. In particular, your backhand didn't go down the line enough. I would have opened up more down the line against him. He likes to stay away from the table so I think a short backspin followed by a deep spinny topspin down the line would give him huge problems. He would also be in poor position for a followup attack. You opened up with your forehand several times inside out instead of going down the line.
7. Your backhand is almost too much topspin. You didn't really use a punch, especially when you were close to the table and he used topspin. It is tough to counterloop off the bounce with the backhand. Even the top players usually use a punch.
8. Your backhand is more of a consistency shot. I think sometimes you got caught in a sort of 'drill' like mode where you topspinned a bunch in a row, while he was returning weird spins, instead of trying to smoke one.

But overall, I have to say, thumbs up. I think your style and your fundamentals are the basis for a game that could reach a real high level if you chose to pursue it.

http://forums.about.com/ab-tabletennis/messages?msg=17191.12

CLegout  adds:

Marco, a couple more things.

Your racket gets a huge sound, but you are not getting much bite. Your loops don't have that much spin or kick. That is why you are having trouble with a blocker that clearly has inferior skill. The opponent has huge problems with spin, he blocks poorly until the pace picks up. And because your loop is generally medium speed, he is actually trying to block against you in many cases. He wants you to attack because he knows your loop doesn't have enough bite (but it does have plenty of bark).

I really suggest you try Mendo MP. Probably not quite as hard a Bryce, but you will find your topspins are much more spinny. I know quite a few players who use really soft rubber and it is too easy to return in general.

There is a 16 year old who I beat twice in competition recently and he is over 2000. He recently had match point on local veteran Danny Ho (2283 American). But I beat him 3-1 and 3-0. Some people told me they never saw such incredible blocking. He is known for having a fast and devastating forehand.

But the truth is, I was able to block his shots because they just didn't have the kick. They felt comfortable. Your loops look very comfortable to block and punch. And that is exactly what your opponent did.

http://forums.about.com/ab-tabletennis/messages?msg=17191.39

Thanks for posting that.

As if Marco doesn't already know, the weight and conditioning are a
big factor. I am rated 100 points above him but would give him 100
points above me if he were in shape.

I'm sure he's played Houed enough to know which ball placements work
best so I won't comment there beyond what others on the page said but
the other big factor that I noticed is that Marco doesn't stay down
after a loop. He's so upright that when the ball comes back his next
loop has a high arc and Houed just pokes it back flat with sidespin
making the next shot have even more arc to be safe. Staying bent over
through and after the shots would be something good to work on. I
suppose that goes back to conditioning to some degree as well as it
takes more energy.

But overall I'd have to say that Marco moves pretty well for a big
guy.

Musashi

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.sport.table-tennis/browse_frm/thread/c0e4cfc3071a6f0d/68e6618dcef52db0?_done=%2Fgroup%2Frec.sport.table-tennis%3F&_doneTitle=Back+to+topics&_doneTitle=Back&&d#68e6618dcef52db0

I played him last year in our team tournament in SD. He is tricky and gives a very funny ball. I I just picked up the pace on him and he didn't seem to be able to switch his grips fast enough consistantly. It still wasnt an easy win since his serve and service return was better than mine. Once I got pass that though I kept control of most of the points. I could easily see him beating players over 2200 though.

http://forums.about.com/ab-tabletennis/messages?msg=17191.36

Hey Marco-

I wanted to put in some feedback on your idea to have videos from players of all different levels. Im a 15 year old, and I really enjoyed watching your games with Louis. In our suburban city in northwest Ohio, my friends and I are atleast a 2 hour drive to the nearest table tennis facility. It seems all the table tennis clubs in Ohio are arranged in a semi-circle around Toledo, just out of our reach... I realize I am more fortunate than most, seeing as we have a table tennis club at school, but there are maybe 4-5 serious players including myself. We have sat in our town, only playing each other, unsure of how we compare to the rest of the world or other people our age. Recently (as in the past few months) we have taken up the study of table tennis, playing nearly daily, working on strokes, forehand, backhand, developing our styles. We purchased custom paddles, taking the game to the next level. But until this video, I was unsure of how we really compared. Dont take offense, but it seems as if this video would fit right into a typical match between one of my friends and I. We have have many volleys that mirror some played out in the videos, especially in the later games. I feel that we are definitely up there, and dare I say... better, haha... No, its all heresay until we actually enter a tourny. I feel my friends and I would fare well in a sanctioned tourny, which is why we are entering the Buckeye Open... in March I think, me in the U-950 and U-16 groups. We shall see how we compare at last. I believe there are many more like us out there who think they are not good enough for tournament play, but need to see videos like this to see if they actually stand a chance or would be blown out of the water. We are looking into posting videos of our own, to show that this isnt just some kid who thinks he and his friends are awesome. Thanks very much, be on the look out for some videos in the coming month or so...

gordman9

Gordman,

Best of luck in the Buckeye. 

You should see if there are any other schools in your area that would like to team up so you can play them head to head. 

Playing in tournaments will be very exciting and eye opening.  I am pretty sure after the Buckeye you will be trying new shots and serves you weren't aware that existed. 

The key for most players is to play others that have a similar level of committment. 

If you could help set up a high school league in your area I am sure everyone would love playing for HS pride.  Also be pleased that the NCTTA will be there for those that want to play in college.