Marco you can beat this guy. The main two factors I see in this match for you was you serve and service return game. You lost so many point on the service return. I cant really help you here since my serve return is about 1400 esp against spinny penhold serves. But I can tell you somthing about your serve game in this match. Simply not prepared! You also served to long. If you serve long you have to have a very good block which is not your strong point. You are much better when you loop first. If you keep him leaning over the table to loop he will be easier to block around.

 Even when you did get him to push you did not seem ready to attack. You even served and pushed! You can serve, wait to see what happens, then decide to attack at the last minute. You should be ready to attack  the moment you finish your serve. Most return will be plenty long enough to attack. If something like a freaky super short return does happen it is MUCH easier to go from looping position to push than from pushing position to loop.

Little changes in your game like that will make a big differnece in your matches.

http://forums.about.com/ab-tabletennis/messages?msg=17377.2

Ron replies to Marco:

Dude if you truley serve short he will NOT look like a superstar. A truley short serve will allow you to get in a point with ANYONE in this country. Even if you loose the point at least you can make the do a softer flip or a drop shot so you get a chance to do something other than watch the ball go by.  Long serves are great for a change up but it is not wise to use them most of the time against a good looper esp a quick penholder. I learned how to play with 3 penholders. I feel that they are actually weaker on short servers than shakehanders esp short serves to the forehand.

http://forums.about.com/ab-tabletennis/messages?msg=17377.5

Ron replies to Marco again:

Ok yesterday I only watched the first clip. You served a lot long and lost almost all of those points. You are on crack if you think this guy plays better against shor serves! I just watch the rest and saw you kill this guy on the next clip by serving almost all shorter serves. You served and opend almost each time. You mixed in a coulple long ones at the end and went 1 for 1 on those. The last game you mostly served short and won most of those points as well. The difference to me was that you seemed to have more trouble with his serve in the last game.

http://forums.about.com/ab-tabletennis/messages?msg=17377.6

I'm having a lot of trouble moving from my left to my right.  I'm also having trouble getting my right leg to get behind my left leg and get that right knee bent so that I can unleash my forehand.  I hope these problems go away as my weight keeps dropping.  There's about 5 pounds difference between this video and the one shot at your house 3 weeks ago.  I should lose at least another 5 before West Covina.  I power walked 2 miles and jogged the next 2 just yesterday.  My cardio and stretching are going up.  Well, I guess it couldn't have gotten much worse. 

M

http://forums.about.com/ab-tabletennis/messages?msg=17343.5

Marco (MarcoHere) answers Ron:

if I serve short Mitsu will look like a superstar.  He is really strong against short serves, pushing flipping or even killing them.  Penholders are good against short serves. 

I was trying to serve half-long, or just plain long.  Mitsu's first ball isn't very powerful, so I'd rather let him open up slow and start counterlooping with him.  Whenever I do that, I usually get the point. 

Other than that, I think this match was messed up due to my inability to bend my right knee enough, and my inability to move fast from left to right.  I'm working on all of that and I think I'll be in much better shape for West Covina next week. 

Of course, I could always use a better short game. 

M

http://forums.about.com/ab-tabletennis/messages?msg=17377.4

Marco (MarcoHere) answers smittysan89 :

ah, so much gets lost in these videos...

Folks, trust me on this: if I "seem" to have played better it's because playing Mitsu is easier than playing Louis.  With Louis you can never be sure what kind of junk is on the ball or where it is going.  (also this is 2nd match of the day instead of 10:30pm on a weekday).

Mitsu hits a lot harder but it is predictable speed and spin and placement.

Trust me here: Mitsu saves his better serves for the end.  And my short serves won't work all day long with him.  He can flip kill and loop to crazy angles off of short balls very well.  Half-long is the way to go with this guy.  Unless you have a truly super-heavy underspin short serve, which I really don't (been trying to develop it for 2 years now). 

I think the biggest problem wasn't my serve, it was the fact that my right knee was killing me and I was having a lot of trouble getting it bent down low enough to be able to counter attack well when he goes to my forehand.  So I ended up doing a lot of blocks when normally I would have been doing rip-winners. 

I'll watch this thing again and try to see if Mitsu is really having so much trouble with my short serves.  I'll keep a tally as I watch it. 

Thanks for the comments

Marco

http://forums.about.com/ab-tabletennis/messages?msg=17377.8

Marco replies to Jenny:

LOL!  You forgot I missed 3 of my own serves too, 2 of them in the crucial 5th game.  Add "needs sports psychologist" to the mix. 

M

Marco responds to Len Winkler:

Hey I'm all ears!  I'd like to know what were some of the main points discussed. 

I was reading (I believe it was in "The Inner Game of Tennis," not sure) that one good way to increase focus is to meditate in a specific way.  In the meditation, you are supposed to play an entire hypothetical match, complete with your serves, anticipated returns, 3rd ball attack, the block, counterlooping or finish, etc.  You must not see the game from afar, as if watching a video.  Rather, you must see it through your own eyes, at the level of the table, as if it is real. 

I can tell you that I have not been able to do this yet.  I keep getting half-way through the first game and then I get distracted, a bee is buzzing near me causing me to open my eyes, or I start to daydream, or the focus shifts.  It's amazing how hard it is to do this mental excercise all the way through a 7-game match.  Do I have adult-ADD?

Due to Ron's comments I went back over this match with a pad and paper.  I made a list of how many times I served long and if I won the point; versus how many times I served short and if I won the point.  I also listed which serve it was that I did.   Interesting list.  Here's a short summary:

Game 1:  4 long serves, won 1 point, lost 3 points.  5 short serves, won 3 lost 2.  Lost this game close.  I also noticed that I won 100% of the short side-top serves, and lost 100% of the long side-top serves.  I guess next time I play Mitsu I should toss those long serves in the trash?

Game 2:  4 long serves, won 3 lost 1.  The 3 I won were all long dead serves.  Hmmmm.....  Also 4 short serves, won 3 lost 1.  This game I won. 

The point here is that in both of these games there was a fairly even mix of long and short serves.  Let's check out the final important game now. 

Game 5:  6 long serves, lost 5 and won 1.  Long serves seem to not have much spin but not disguised the dead at all.  He probably got used to them by now.  I should have changed it up.  3 short serves, 2 I dumped into the net and the 3rd I got the push but wiffed the open up. 

This 5th game is disgusting.  Dumping 2 serves into the net?  No juice or disguise on anything?  Swinging like sammy sosa at everything that moves?  Yuk!

I hope I can make the necessary changes before this weekend.  I need to tighten-up my play and not make so many unforced errors.  It's like I'm spotting every opponent at least 4 points.  I also like Kahleel's simple advice, which was "try not to lose the point in the first 3 balls." 

Marco

 http://forums.about.com/ab-tabletennis/messages?msg=17377.12

Marco answers Mark Kent:

All sounds good to me.  Interestingly, in the "Louis" match another poster criticized me for not hitting the backhand harder.  Hmmm.....

BTW, in the visualization excercise you don't have to use an opponent that you are familiar with.  You can make one up.  It's a focus excercise, supposedly increases your ability to stay focused and concentrated throughout the match. 

I'd like to do it regularly but I can't seem to stay focused enough to remember to do it...

 M

http://forums.about.com/ab-tabletennis/messages?msg=17377.17

I think you can easily beat this guy as well. You show a more mature game here than against that BS blocker you lost to.
You have the style and the shots to advance to a very high level fairly quickly. It's just a matter of getting some more consistency and short game.

http://forums.about.com/ab-tabletennis/messages?msg=17377.3

i think you played much better in this match then vs Louis. Like everyone else said just get that serve return down and be ready to loop first.

http://forums.about.com/ab-tabletennis/messages?msg=17377.7

What a sad state of affairs American table-tennis is in if this is representative of 1800+ pong. The video shows two player rated no better than 1400; max.

Note to Marco:

I haven't missed a backhand outright in over 3 years. You missed 3 in three matches, not to mention the 15 or so mis-hits on the backhand. You push every single time when you should be loop driving and you stand there like you're wearing cement shoes. For God sake Borillo lose some friggin weight, start moving those feet, get your eyes tested and dont forget you have a weigh-in tomorrow.

Jenny

http://forums.about.com/ab-tabletennis/messages?msg=17377.9

We had an Olympic Psychologist give a GREAT presentation to us in Colorado Springs this past weekend. It may have been helpful to you...

http://forums.about.com/ab-tabletennis/messages?msg=17377.11

>> You are supposed to play an entire hypothetical
>> match, complete with your serves, anticipated
>> returns, 3rd ball attack, the block,
>> counterlooping or finish, etc. You must not see
>> the game from afar, as if watching a video.
>> Rather, you must see it through your own eyes, at
>> the level of the table, as if it is real.

I did this when I was in high school. For weeks
before a tournament I'ld think of little else.
It's surprising that I didn't get hit by a car
while walking to school because I was seriously
zoned out (or zoned in, depending on how you look
at it).

Of course, being in an environment where you know
the key players, and played them just last month,
is important to successful visualization. And I
only had 3 to 5 people that I had to plan for.

I would guess that your local AZ scene is not too
big that you couldn't visualize your way through a
local U2000 event. For the tournament that this
videotaped match came from how many people would
you have had to "think" about?

Onto your analysis of serves:

When I watched the match I had already read the
previous posters' comments about your serves.
My feeling is that your serves were not critical.
It was what you did, or failed to do, after the serve
that mattered. Basically, many times you got the
ball you wanted (a long push) and then did not
capitalize on it. Your opponent did not take
undue advantage of your own serves, whether long
or short.

>> I hope I can make the necessary changes before
>> this weekend. I need to tighten-up my play and
>> not make so many unforced errors. It's like
>> I'm spotting every opponent at least 4 points.
>> I also like Kahleel's simple advice, which was
>> "try not to lose the point in the first 3
>> balls."

Here is my analysis, sorry for the bluntness:

You self-destruct on the backhand... the most controlled
backhands in a row you can do is one... after that you try
to blast it.

You miss a fair bit because you're hitting outside
your comfort range, but then when you make a
Kreanga-like shot it clearly justifies it for
you... so it seems you are more willing to make a
2600 show here and there than to do what it takes
to win that match.

I think what you needed to do was:

a) You were getting long pushes off your own serve
but didn't take advantage of them.

b) controlled topspin to the bh;
opponent was not aggressively blocking

c) slow the game down

-mark

http://forums.about.com/ab-tabletennis/messages?msg=17377.16

Jim Tunnicliffe (JTunny)  says:

> But I'm 35 and 245 and those aren't very good numbers.

:-)  Well, the 35 isn't THAT bad, but it's for sure not going to get any better, no matter how hard you try.  On the other hand, the 245 is pretty bad, but you've got a lot more control over that one...

By the end of the year, we want to see the new Lean, Mean, 200 lb. Italian Stallion bounding gracefully about like Ryu on crank, ripping forehands and backhands with reckless abandon... 

Tunny
Still (just barely) 40-something and 175.  Well, OK, maybe 179.  Should be 168...

http://forums.about.com/ab-tabletennis/messages?msg=17377.21

MarcoHere wrote:

And of course, it would be nice if I could move faster and bend down lower and spring up like a 17-year old.  But I'm 35 and 245 and those aren't very good numbers.  I'm working on it though, slowly....  Maybe I can hit 2000 before I hit 40?

I'm assuming that you mean 2000 in ratings, and not pounds?  ;@

Seriously though, losing the extra weight (which you said you are working on) is probably the best thing for your table tennis game that you can do at the moment, apart from getting Sean to whisper in your ear during the matches...

I've been as heavy as 245 in the past, and I can say with certainty that the difference between 245 and 200 is huge. Carrying too much weight affects you in so many ways - more than just slowing you down, stopping you from bending and springing like a teenager. Other problems include:

• You can't get as much quality training, because you get tired too fast.
• Opponents tend to fight harder and give up less often, hoping that you'll run out of steam. Every so often they'll come back and win even if you don't blow up - and every so often you will blow up and they'll reel you in.
• A long rally can affect the next two or three points you play, while you attempt to get your breath back and pulse rate back down to a level where you can regain your fine motor skills. Two or three long points in a row can wipe you out for the rest of the game because you don't have the leg strength left to get around the court.
• You tend to lose longer matches and tournaments because of lack of stamina. How many times have heavy players let a game go because they decided they had better save their energy for the next game? A certain percentage of those games we let go could have been won.
• Recovery can be an issue, as you take longer to get back to training due to the pounding your joints get from the extra weight.

Keep grinding off the pounds - it will be worth it in the long run as your game improves.

Greg (putting off getting on his exercise bike by browsing this forum)

Marco: 

That's great that you are posting match videos.  Here are some suggestions, which will hopefully be helpful:

1. I can see that your right knee might have been bothering you.  But even so, you assume a backhand footwork and body position and rarely deviate from it, staying square to the table while moving side to side for shots.  (I checked the video of your earlier match, and the same tendency is there if slightly less pronounced for a healthier leg!)  A telltale sign is how you handle your opponent's spin to your deep forehand.  Rather than turning to re-loop or block, you tend to stay square and therefore strain to return the ball straight ahead.  To say it another way, your forehand body position is a natural for aiming the ball to the left (i.e. at the floor).  You need to pull your right leg back and pivot your body to the right in order to re-orient your aim to where you want to hit the ball. 

2. If you can modify your forehand footwork and positioning, you can also learn to re-loop consistently with your forehand, which would be a big boost for your game.  At present, your backhand spin is pretty good and capable of sustaining a long rally, but you tend to get passive (or take a risky big swing) when the ball goes to your forehand.  This makes it a good play for opponents to go to your forehand to get away from your backhand spin.  Plugging that hole would be big from a tactical standpoint, and put considerable pressure on opponents even if all you did was to spin the forehand back consistently. 

3. Your serves and short game need work and will also raise your game noticeably if improved.  I understand your tactical reason for serving long in this match, but your long serves tended to bounce high over the net and tended towards the depth that's easy to attack (i.e. not short or long enough to cause a real problem).  Also, if an opponent of this level can attack your short serves, I'm afraid they can't be very good.  As with your long serves, your short serves should travel very low over the net.  To accomplish this, you need to focus on the height of your contact point with the ball (which at present seems inconsistent).  If  you contact the ball too high, it's going to bounce too high through simple physics.  Also, a good short serve bounces close to the net on your side, and emphasizes uncertainty of spin rather than loading it up.  A capable opponent who is not quite sure of the spin on a short serve will return it cautiously because he risks a major error otherwise.  For all this, serving practice with a box of balls is quite helpful.     

4. A good return game and short game is simple to describe.  Against serves you either push short and low (two bounce), flip or loop.  There are no other options -- and especially not the option of a deep push against most opponents.  On your serve you tighten things up as noted above and serve either short, Seemiller depth (so it just about bounces twice), or really long and zingy -- but always low over the net.  When your opponent pushes deep, you loop -- always.  That's it.  Your objective should be to work at these things until you can always do them consistently, against all kinds of serves, pushes etc.     

5. Finally, with improved footwork and positioning (as suggested above) will come the ability for you to develop a very consistent looping game.  Practice this by having your partner block the ball all over the court while you run around and keep looping it deep on the table, using both forehand and backhand.  Start slow, and work for consistency and depth (a real key).  When you can handle ten or twenty in a row, increase the speed of the drill a notch.  Eventually, this skill can be the basis of a strong attacking game you will enjoy playing.  It also takes pressure off, because you won't have to go for winners every time.  A reasonably good loop placed deep on the table is hard to attack, and will tend to give you another chance at the same until your opponent either misses, or sets you up for an easy winner.

I see no reason why your game could not be above 2000 consistently if you are able to progress on these points.   

Carl Danner    

http://forums.about.com/ab-tabletennis/messages?msg=17377.23

Carl Danner (CarlDanner ) addresses PRIMORACFAN:

It's true that there are exceptions to every rule.  Sometimes, as you observe, you might want to push to draw a weak opening from your opponent for a counter attack.  Some of the very top US players (e.g. Fan and Cheng) can execute a nasty push that's hard for almost anyone else in the US to lift.  Certain weak serves (e.g. short and high) can be angle-pushed to good effect.  It's difficult to do the right thing on every ball. 

But...for most players, in most circumstances, a deep push is at least weak by 2000 level, and usually gets you in affirmative trouble by the time you reach 2200.  By the time we are talking 2300-2400 or above, it's usually a lost point.  Pushing deep also may take the place of another, much better shot you could otherwise have made.  And a habit of pushing tends to put you in a less advantageous body position for the attack you should be mounting instead.   

Below about 1800, most players push and get away with it most of the time because their opponents can't attack consistently.  As players rise above that level, this habit progressively becomes a problem (and eventually an absolute barrier) to further advancement.  For improvement, my advice is that it's best to assume that you will never again willingly deliver a deep push in your life, and develop your game accordingly.  Exceptions can always be made when called for. 

You're right, I am pretty strong on this.  But I would predict that virtually any (and perhaps every) top player you might ask would say the same thing. 

Carl Danner  

http://forums.about.com/ab-tabletennis/messages?msg=17377.26

Carl Danner (CarlDanner ) addresses Cole Ely

It's a matter of level.  Past a certain level, penholders don't have backhands any more in response to a deep push.  They move and hit a forehand winner.

http://forums.about.com/ab-tabletennis/messages?msg=17377.27

Carl Danner

I noticed beforer that you recommend to never push deep on return of short serves. I think if you play a heavy, deep push you can force the opponent to play a weak loop that you can counterattack. If he doesn't attack it it gives you a better chance to attck as a push off a deep ball is not as effective as a push off a short serve.

For very high level you are probably right but I think a heavy push can be a very effective return up until the 2500 level.

I've noticed vs penholders a deep push to the bh usually works out ok as long as they don't have time to step around it.